This is a series of posts to an e-community calling itself Weird Jews:

"Hi there

I'm not quite sure of how this all works but here is a piece I posted to two threads yesterday. There is an argument going on about Zionism, Judaism and Jewishness.

Zionism is a political ideology that arose in the mid to late 19th century. There were various Zionist thinkers but the one who matched thought to activism and diplomacy was Theodor Herzl. He made it very clear that the Zionist idea was "colonial" and that its implementation - ie the establishment of a Jewish State - would involve ethnic cleansing. It is not enough simply to look at the territory for Jews aspect, you have to look at the cost to non-Jews.

Judaism is a religion. For 1,900 years there was no Jewish state and no demand for one among Jews and yet the religion was practiced by a higher proportion of Jews during that time when compared to now and the Talmud expressly forbade Jews from seeking statehood. The chosen people may or may not be a superiority notion depending on interpretation. Zionism however is most definitely sectarian, or indeed racist. Under Israel's laws whilst non-refugees from what was Palestine are not allowed to return there, those of us who are born Jewish can "return" there even though we don't come from there. It is not enough to say that people can convert. Under Israeli law you have to convert to orthodox Judaism (hahalacha) in order to be accepted and why should the natives of the country have to do that?

Jewishness is the ethnic background of the descendants of people who have practiced Judaism. This means that you can be a Jew even if you do not believe in Judaism. You can be a Jewish athiest for example.

From the late 19th century to the 1940s it seems that the majority of Jews opposed Zionism. The first Zionist congress was held in Basle in Switzerland because Theodor Herzl feared the reaction of the local Jewish community if he held the congress in his native Vienna in Austria. When The British Lord Balfour issued his notorious declaration that the UK would look favourably on the establishment of a "Jewish national home in Palestine" the only Jewish member of the UK government at the time denounced the declaration as "anti-Semitic".

Some people compare Zionism to other movements for national liberation but this is wrong. For example the demand for statehood for, say, Palestinians is a demand for a state to be governed for and by the people of Palestine (aka Israel and the occupied territories) or the demand for French statehood is a demand for a government for and by the people of France. The demand for Jewish statehood is a demand for governance for and by the people of...where? Not the people of Israel, many of them are not Jewish. And Israel is not a state for non-Jews. The Jews, of course, are not the people of Israel. The demand for Jewish statehood is a demand for a state where the rights of citizens is based on ethnic descent or conversion. Even apartheid South Africa had honorary whites. And of course in order to give anywhere in the world a Jewish majority ethnic cleansing has to be used. This certainly happened in Palestine. So Israel is a state based on ethnic cleansing and apartheid laws. I would gladly condemn any other state with the same characteristics but there ain't one. Many states can be said to have some apartheid trappings and many have ethnic cleansing in their history but only Israel owes its existence to those two things together: ethnic cleansing and apartheid laws.

Therefore Israel is an apartheid state based on ethnic cleansing and Zionism is a form of racism.

Mark Elf
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com"

Reply 1 from "Arpad"

"We do not welcome spammers here

Go spread your thoughts to some other place."

I should point out that whilst I have the responses on email, they have deleted my responses to the responses. Thank god Israel's a democracy!

Reply 2 from Ilex011

"Troll elsewhere."

Reply 3 from Arpad (again)

"You have no entries in your journal. It created 11.Sep.2004

I assume you created it for spamming your propaganda.

What your did is plain violation of Live Journal etiquette. Please don't bother with reply."

Reply 4 from Benjamin (BenBlack)

"Go peddle your bullshit somewhere else. No one here is interested in your blog."

Reply 5 from otakushan

"This has a lot of holes in it and draws conclusions that are easily disproven.

Zionism is not racism in any way, shape or form. Israel has airlifted Ethiopians and Indians to become citizens. All citizens in Israel have the same rights. Arabs serve in the Knesset and an Arab was even voted Ms. Israel in 2000.

Ethnic cleansing is a joke. The only ethnic cleansing over the past few hundred years has been the ethnic cleansing of Jews. All you have to do is walk through ARab East Jerusalem and you will see marks on the doors of Arab homes. Those marks are imprints left from when Jordanian forces tore off the mezzuzot and forced the Jews out. The Jordanians and Egyptians forced the Jews out of Gaza and the West Bank in 1948/49. When Jordan controlled E. Jerusalem, they would not allow a single Jew to visit the Western Wall.

Also, when Jordan and Egypt controlled the territories, there wasn't a single effort to declare an independent Palestine in those areas. Not by the Jordanians, not by the Egyptians and certainly not by the Palestinians. All you have to do is look at the charter of the PLO from 1964 and you will read that the PLO considered the West Bank and Gaza to be sovereign property of Jordan and Egypt. The PLO laid no claim to the West Bank or Gaza until after Israel won them in a war it did not start. "

Reply 6 from Ilex011

"Oh give us a break with that wide-eyed innocence crap." (I think that was a reponse to me asking why I had been called a troll.)

Reply 7 from Daniel Faigin - California Highway Guy

"Quoting from the S.C.J FAQ, which I [he] maintain[s]:

Question 14.9:
Is Zionism racist?

Answer:

No. Zionism is a process with the ultimate goal of a Jewish homeland. Participation in this process is not restricted to Jews alone. Furthermore, the question is an example of how even simple questions can use inflammatory terminology, as "racist" has a pejoritive sense and is an imprecise term.

A central tenet of Zionism is that there should exist a place in the world where Jews have sovereignty. This is no different from the ethnic desires of other minority and ethnic groups; I'm sure you can name numerous examples. Recent history has demonstrated the need for such a homeland; alas, humanity doesn't appear to be moving in a direction that would eliminate that need.

Is the desire for a Jewish homeland "racist"? No. Racism is a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. Judaism is not a race--adherents come from multiple ethnic backgrounds. More importantly, there is no notion in Zionism that Jews are superior to other races (unlike, for example, the Nazis, who held that the Aryan race was superior).

Please remember that Zionism is distinct from the state of Israel; if you look at the history of Zionism, you will see that for some of the zionistic movements, Israel was not the target homeland (in fact, you'll discover that at one time, Uganda was an option). Israel is modern political state that strives to provide a pluralistic and open society, comprising many ethnic and religious groups. It doesn't always succeed in this goal, but neither do other democratic states. As a modern state, Israel is subject to various political realities that dictate its laws and regulations. Discussion of these laws and regulations is less germane to the focus of S.C.J and is more appropriate for talk.politics.mideast. However, the primacy of Jewish law in Israel is no more "racist" than the primacy of Catholic law in Vatican City, the primacy of the Church of England in Great Britain, or the primacy of Islam in many Arabic countries.

So what is the connection between Zionism and Israel? Zionism helped found the state, and provided the underlying zeal for many of Israel's leaders. The Zionist zeal still helps provide funding for the state, as many Jews outside of Israel support Zionist organizations operating in Israel. "

Reply 8 from Aurora Celeste

"Subject: Re: Troll?
Troll:

An outrageous message posted to a newsgroup or mailing list or message board to bait people to answer. Trolling is a form of harassment that can take over a discussion. Well meaning defenders can create chaos by responding to trolls. The best response is to ignore it. Also, the person who posts such messages.
www.walthowe.com/glossary/t.html


A purposely stupid, inflammatory, or downright wrong article (closely related to flamebait). Its purpose is to get people mad and make them look stupid and gullible
www.aol.com/netfind/newsgroup/glossary.html

Deliberately post an offensive or contentious message in a public message base, with the specific intent of provoking flames.
associate.com/camsoc/ctt/gloss-t.html


A post that is intentionally inflammatory and which is typically an attempt to start a flamewar. One who posts trolls.
www.sff.net/people/lucy-snyder/gloss.html


An annoyance usually on Messageboards who posts for the purpose of causing a disturbance. Often by making comments of a slanderous nature, accusatory, or just general pain-in-the-assness.
www.sanguinarius.org/~sarasvati/terms.htm


A term used to define a public message (either on a USENET newsgroup or other public message board on an online service) that is posted for the sole purpose of offending people and/or generating an enormous flood of non-topic replies. (submitted by Brett Palmer)
www.cyberalaska.com/alaska/webpage/dictionary.html


You didn't post your essay in an open discussion forum about the war, you posted an article negative about Zionism in a community of Jews, where most people will obviously be pro-Zionism. Since you didn't post in any of the anti-Zionism communities, we can only assume you posted here to upset people and provoke them into posting in disagreement. That makes you a troll. Here are a few communities where your post would be more appropriate, and you may get the debate you claim to want.

http://www.livejournal.com/community/anti_zionists/
http://www.livejournal.com/community/antizionism/
http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=dear_jews
http://www.livejournal.com/community/israel_arab/"

Reply 9 from The Prodigal Son

"Don't feed the trolls."

Reply 10 from

""If you didn't like what you read why didn't you stay away?"* * [that's me but cut I think]

Why the hell should I?

What kind of stupid-ass logic is that? "

Reply 11 from Aurora Celeste

"You keep mentioning ethnic cleansing and stating that Isreael is guilty of using it on occassions. I am wondering if you can name times and places for this. I've personally never heard of any instances, but if you can prove me wrong I'll admit being mistaken.

Noun 1. ethnic cleansing - the mass expulsion and killing of one ethic or religious group in an area by another ethnic or religious group in that area "

[I think I sent her a link to the nasty Benny Morris.]

Reply 12 from Aurora Celeste

LOL, depends on the subject. I'll write pages and pages on teaching someone to sew ;)

Reply 13 from Princess Anika (pradagirl)

"Go away Troll!!!"

Reply 14 from Daniel Faigin - California Highway Guy (cahwyguy)

"In addition to the FAQ words, I'd like to add some comments of my own.

Judaism is a religion.

Actually, this is imprecise. It is simultaneous a relgion, a nation, and a culture. However, it is not an ethnicity, which would imply there are certain ethnic characteristics common to all Jews.

The chosen people may or may not be a superiority notion depending on interpretation.

It is not a superiority notion. Chosen refers to "chosen to carry the burden of following Torah".

Zionism however is most definitely sectarian, or indeed racist.

Neither. It is not sectarian, as Zionism is simply the desire for a state. It is not racism, for Judaism is not a race (except, perhaps, in certain WWII military leaders' mindsets).

Under Israel's laws whilst non-refugees from what was Palestine are not allowed to return there, those of us who are born Jewish can "return" there even though we don't come from there.

Israel's laws are distinct from Judaism. I don't think the wierdjews forum is the place to discuss the secular issue that is Israel's laws: that's for a mid-east politics discussion.

Under Israeli law you have to convert to orthodox Judaism (hahalacha) in order to be accepted...

That's not 100% true. Conversions performs internal to the state are subject to that restriction, simply because of the legal power of the Chief Rabbi. Conversions performed outside of the state are accepted for the law of return; other purposes are less clear.

Jewishness is the ethnic background of the descendants of people who have practiced Judaism. This means that you can be a Jew even if you do not believe in Judaism. You can be a Jewish athiest for example.

Although one can be a Jewish athetist, it is not ethnic, for there are multiple ethnicities that make up the rainbow of Judaism, be they eastern European, southern European, African, Asian, Russian, Yemini, etc. "Culture" might be a more precise term than ethnicity.

Further, by going into the "descendants of people who have practiced Judaism", you are falling into the genetic Judaism trap that was used during WWII by the Nazis to classify people as ¼ Jewish, ½ Jewish, etc. That's bull, and has been scientifically proven as bull.

Some people compare Zionism to other movements for national liberation but this is wrong. For example the demand for statehood for, say, Palestinians is a demand for a state to be governed for and by the people of Palestine (aka Israel and the occupied territories) or the demand for French statehood is a demand for a government for and by the people of France.

NPR recently had a reasonably good series on this. The key point is that there wasn't a formally governed nation of Palestine either. There was no desire express for statehood by the nomadic peoples of the area, except as a reaction to the state of Israel. IIRC, the other nations in the area, in fact, were viewed as the outlets for Arab nationalism, but where ursurpped by the leaders of those nations.

An interesting question to ask with respect to this, which is rarely asked, is: Why shouldn't the Jews have their own state?". After all, the Catholics have a state (Vatican City); the Anglicans have a state (England), and there are many, many Muslim states. Irrespective of the location, why shouldn't there be a state?

If you believe there should, then the question of location arises. Any location chosen will displace someone, so the question is how to do it equitably. So, again, your dispute is not with Zionism, but with the legal policies of the state and how they handled the displacement. That's not a discussion for wierdjews.

but only Israel owes its existence to those two things together: ethnic cleansing and apartheid laws.

If there is to be a reasoned discussion of this, one must move away from pejorative terminiology, that is, terms that have judgement already applied to them. Terrorist is one. So is "ethnic cleansing" and "apartheid".

Zionism is a form of racism.

I have previously rebutted this point."

Reply 15 from otakushan (otakushan)

"From Israel's declaration of independence:

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions."

Reply 16 from Princess Anika (pradagirl)

Boo freaking hoo....
cry me a river

Reply 17 from The Prodigal Son... returns? (angel_thane)

"In fairness, Israel currently does have plans to engage in ethnic cleansing.

Of course, this ethnic cleansing consists of ethnically cleansing the gaza strip of all jewish residents, which probably isn't what he meant."

Reply 18 Daniel Faigin - California Highway Guy (cahwyguy)

"Now that's what I call a fairly fair comment except having said that racism is an imprecise term you then go on to offer a precise definition so as to exclude Zionism from it.

Quoting from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-

Function: noun

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

So, it is not my definition. It is the generally accepted definition. Judaism is not a race. Therefore, Zionism, cannot, be definition, be racism.

The desire of Zionists to have a space for Jewish sovereignty ignores the fact that when the movement arose, no such space was available.

This is also not true. If you know your zionist history, you should know that Hertzl (at least I recall it was Hertzl) originally proposed Uganda as the Jewish state. I believe it was Britain that moved it to the middle-east.

So ethnic cleansing was required, as Benny Morris has discovered and now, enthusiastically advocates.

Ethnic Cleansing is a pejorative term, and shouldn't be used. It typically refers to ethnic genocide, as was performed in Germany, Turkey, and the Balkins, and has decidedly NOT been performed in Israel.

Whenever a new state is formed, there are often relocations of indiginous populations. Good or bad, this is what happens. Look at the treatment of Native Americans. The question is whether it was done equitablly, and that is neither a zionist nor Jewish question: it is a political question made by the new state of Israel.

The Jews are not a race it's true, but the who is? We are, however, mostly a descent group, and that descent confers rights on those who are born Jewish more rights in Israel than people who come from there.

Again, a political question, independent from both Zionism and Judaism. Sounds like you have a political dispute with the state of Israel. Such discussions belong elsewhere." [this might get confusing - he is quoting me in parts and responding to the quotes]

Reply 19 from Daniel Faigin - California Highway Guy (cahwyguy)

"[I did notice you suggesting that I somehow came close to a Nazi definition of who is a Jew. I think you'll find that the Law of Return goes for people with one Jewish grandparent just as the Nuremberg Laws did. Though of course for different reasons.] [that's me]

Actually, quite likely for similar reasons, as one of the reasons for that law was to establish Israel as a haven for folks fleeing such cleansing as occurred in Germany."

Reply 20 from Daniel Faigin - California Highway Guy (cahwyguy)

"But who is native? After all, go back 2000 years, and the Jews were native."

Reply 21 from Daniel Faigin - California Highway Guy (cahwyguy)

"The vast majority of Jews are native to Israel.

All Hebrews (ie those of the hebraic half of the semitic race) are derived from the area of Israel. They are the native people of the land.

It doesn't matter how long you take an Aboriginal Canadian out of Canada, he (and his decendants) are still the native people of Canada.

It doesn't matter how long some blacks have been living in the carribbean or north america,they are still the native people of Africa.

It doesn't matter how long ssome Hebraic people have been in exile from their homeland, they are still the native people of Israel."

Reply 22 from Ilex011

"Gee, and all the while you claim to take the moral high road, you do the same thing as your detractors!

BRILLIANT!!!"

Reply 23 from Daniel Faigin - California Highway Guy (cahwyguy)

"That's bias. Not racism. I don't think you'll get as many arguments if you use the term "biased".

if someone told me I couldn't buy my house in Dagenham (UK) because I am Jewish I would call them a racist. Similarly people who apply that same principle to non-Jews I call racist.

And you would be wrong in your terms. The correct term is "discriminatory"."

Reply 24 from Daniel Faigin - California Highway Guy (cahwyguy)

""The Zionist movement was formalised in the 19th century, the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Nazi occupied territory happened in the 20th and please don't say you didn't know about Zionist collaboration with the Nazis and other anti-Semitic groups." [me again]

I've heard the stories of which you mention. In any case, although Zionism was the product of the 19th century, the Law of Return is from the State of Israel, which is the product of post-WWII 20th Century. "

Reply 25 from Poof (tigeress52)

"it's sad that your views of your own people are so warped. hopefully you'll wake up one day and realize how horribly, horribly wrong you are. good luck."

Reply 26 from ilex011

"HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

Man, go tighten the tin foil around your head- that's the BEST conspiracy theory I've heard in a long time!

ps- your weak seams are showing. when in doubt, *don't* rely on attempting to be condescending! that trick is tired and played-out like... like an old conspiracy theory! bwahahaha! "minutiae"- bwhahahahaaa!! the "professor" persona *never* works anymore. everyone has seen it. time to put your tin-foiled thinking cap on and come up with something a bit more surruptitious, no?

*snort*"

Reply 27 from Daniel Faigin - California Highway Guy (cahwyguy)

"You were referring to the removal of the native inhabitants. My point is that Jews were native inhabitants of that area at one time; they were forcibly removed by the Babylonians, Romans, Ottomans, etc.

"Jews", in general, are made up of different ethnicities. But this is a different issue than the fact that Jews did, provably, live in the middle east in the past"

Reply 28 from ilex011

Here take this slowly now."

HAHAHAHAHAHA! When in doubt, resort to condenscension! Good call! Overused and tired, albeit.

" I ASKED you why you stick around. You TOLD me to go. Very different."

...another troll tactic- divert from the original point by attempting to get the responder entangled in useless MINUTIAE!

"You seem to have lost the plot."

Nope. It's crystal-clear to me, pal.

That's all the replies to my "free" (well now unfree) standing post but here is a nice reponse to the originator of the thread I originally responded to. Unfortunately I cannot thank her because I am banned from the Weird Jews site.

slayer of the poon perpetrators (ill_esha) said:

"Interesting points. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I appreciate them - your logic is pretty sound.

Thank you for understanding what I should have written explicitly - that I meant "debate" where I wrote "argue"." [cor if only the rest were like her]